Chuck Hegel explains democracy to Joe Lieberman

You know, it would have been nice for a democrat -- other than Ned Lamont -- to explain this stuff to Sanctimonious Joe, but Chuck Hegel will do.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Lieberman, let me show you the latest poll on all this about American attitudes. Support of the president sending 22,000 more troops to Iraq, 36 percent, opposed 61. Is it possible for a commander in chief to conduct a war where two out of three Americans, nearly, oppose his latest initiative and now believe that the war is not worth fighting?

SEN. LIEBERMAN: Well, it makes it harder, that’s for sure. And, and, you know, this is the great challenge because this is a different kind of war, Tim, as you well know. These are not armies massed on a battlefield or ships at sea. This is unconventional. It’s terrorism. And when the people see suicide bombings on TV every night, they get frustrated, they get angry. And, and I wish what they did is got angry because those suicide bombings of people signing up to be Iraqi police officers show how evil the enemy is. The fact is that, in matters of national security, we all, including the president, have an obligation to do what we believe is right for our people. And that I think is what the president is doing.

Look, we all want to bring our troops home as soon as possible. We all want to find the right exit strategy. But my own sense of history tells me that in war, ultimately, there are two exit strategies. One is called victory; the other is called defeat. The president offered a proposal the other night that holds the hope of victory in a critical battle for the Iraqis and for us. With all respect, the other proposals represent the beginning of a retreat, of a defeat. And I think the consequences for the Middle East, which has been so important to our international stability over the years, and to the American people, who have been attacked on 9/11 by the same enemy that we’re fighting in Iraq today, supported by a rising Islamist radical super-powered government in Iran, the consequences for us, for—I want to be personal—for my children and grandchildren, I fear will be disastrous. That’s why I want to do everything I can to win in Iraq. And, and, and I think that’s what my, my oath of office requires me to do.

MR. RUSSERT: Senator Hagel, talk about that if you would. Are you advocating retreat and defeat, and do you believe we are fighting the same people that brought about September 11th?

SEN. HAGEL: First, as I said before, I am not, nor any member of Congress that I’m aware of, Tim, is advocating defeat. That’s ridiculous, and I’m offended that any responsible member of Congress or anyone else would even suggest such a thing. Senator Lieberman talks about his children and grandchildren. We all have children and grandchildren. He doesn’t have a market on that, nor do any of my colleagues. We’re all concerned about the future of this country. But we have an honest disagreement here, and that’s what democracies are about.

Now, the fact is we can talk all we want, and we can go to all the specialists in the world, the fact is, the Iraqi people will determine the fate of Iraq. The people of the Middle East will determine their fate. Now, when we continue to interject ourselves in a situation that we never have understood, we’ve never comprehended, and I think after four years it’s becoming quite clear of that, that tells us something very, very clearly. And we now have to devise a way to find some political consensus with our allies, especially the people in the Middle East, that is going to require to find a political framework for some progress with the Israeli-Palestinian issue. It’s going to require listening to our allies in the Middle East.

You know, Tim, I hear this talk about generals and military involvement. The two top American generals in Iraq in November and December, the last 60 days, both in open testimony and interviews took exactly the opposite approach of what President Bush was talking about on Wednesday night. Now, someone is, is not listening here. There is a major disconnect. And we talk about the future for our country. The future of the Middle East as a region is in play now at a very, very defining time. That’s what we should be thinking about. We need to get out of the bog of where we are of tactical thinking. Of course 50,000 troops in Baghdad are not going to turn that around. That is a tribal sectarian civil war, and we need to do everything we can with some smart thinking.

Let’s just take one thing. Why not take American troops, put them on the border? I hear a lot from this administration about this border being porous, all the terrorists leaking in there. The terrorist problem isn’t the biggest problem today in, in Iraq. Are terrorists there? Yes. It is Iraqis killing Iraqis, Tim. It’s Shias killing Shias. That’s the biggest problem, that’s not going to be solved by the American military.

Sorry, Mr. Hegel. As we learned last year, Joe Lieberman isn't big on that whole "democracy" thing.